#also what I think this means for the grimwalks

[bumpscosity]

starting an origins server with some of my siblings friends and i just found out everyone's making characters up for it i feel like the combo i picked has so many possible outcomes

[sparrowlucero]

i enjoy ur bird abode thoughts! I was a genuine enjoyer of the show when it was airing, I’m no die hard fan though and love to see ppls personal takes on the overall story/plot. Im curious if you also would agree or have any thoughts on the impacts The Mouse’s cancellation had on the shows ability to be more than it was? srry im not super eloquent with my words, but basically ur response to that ask got me wondering if part of the reason the show like genuinely wasnt all that ground breaking or unique in the end plot wise (other than the villain faces consequences in the end ig) as far as YA/Teen animation goes, was because of The Mouse’s inability to let the writers flesh out the show before gutting it? i have a negative bias toward The Mouse franchise and obviously dont know anything about how writing a show under the eyes of a franchise that big would work, its just smth that rattles around in my head and wanna know what u think!

Well to an extent, but I think it's much more the effect the studio had on how the owl house started out as rather than it not getting a full season at the end - It didn't escape my noticed that the show was initially announced as being a "horror comedy" when it doesn't really seem like either, especially by the second season, and yeah, the original pitch bible is obviously aiming for that much more than the show proper is as it goes along (and is honestly seems quite a bit more funny, weird, and dark, with an overarching plotline about a giant bug being used to religiously suppress people, eda able to cure her curse by killing luz, and one of the major characters being a teen boy awoken from a sleeping curse who ends up being a weird little bigot because he's from the 13th century, among other things)

(side note, i just noticed they actually specifically describe the thing i assumed the show was gonna be about here. huh.) but ultimately the bulk of the show that was actually made seems very influenced by a writing team that was genuinely interested in making a tropey YA fantasy story rather than just being mandated to. I mean even in what aired you can see the show sort of settle in ways that feel less like studio interference and more like, you know, art students creating their ideal fantasy show, like how King is clearly Eda's roommate who's funny because he looks like and sounds like a little dog despite being an adult man at the beginning but by the end they've made him her adopted sad backstory son who's explicitly a child. While I think a third season would have made the show as it existed better, because they clearly didn't get to finish the plot they wanted to (frankly to the point where some major aspects of the show are a bit confusing, I'm still not sure what a grimwalker is), I don't really fault the show for that but also don't think that hypothetical season (which pretty clearly would have been mostly about the magic school teens going to normal school) would suddenly flip around into something that I personally found interesting and subversive. Nor should it, really; again, it being Queernorm Harry Potter thing is clearly the intended appeal of the show, it's not really a flaw but just not a genre I'm personally interested in when compared to what I initially expected the show to be.

HOWEVER I will say they robbed little weird girls of their representation and that can't be forgiven

[sepublic]

Manny Noceda Haunting the Narrative

We all speak of Caleb haunting the narrative, but what of Manny? Perhaps haunting isn’t the exact right word here, for its foreboding connotations; But he’s ultimately an unseen, unheard ghost whose influence can be felt. Whose absence is there, more clearly than others to be honest because we know that Luz had to have a father, it’s not ambiguous for witches like it is for humans.

From the very first scene, we have to wonder where Manny is if he’s not present during Luz’s conference but Camila is; He’s not even present for Luz to be sent off. He’s not mentioned or acknowledged.

But we have the book he gave Luz, the one that Luz is drawn back towards, and it’s what leads her to the Boiling Isles, and motivates her to stay there for her own sake. It’s what motivates Luz to think of herself, when by the second half of the show she begins to refuse that option as inherently selfish.

If Homesick had aired during S1B, we’d have gotten a glimpse of Manny, but specifically, curiously faceless; Until then, Luz sees a parental figure deteriorating from an incurable illness and is obsessed with handling it, offering medical advice to Eda at one point.

And in Yesterday’s Lie, there’s still no Manny or mention of him, but we see glimpses of his body without the face. And then finally, finally we get Reaching Out and realize; He died. There was no divorce, it’s not that Manny is dead to mother and daughter, only literally. He’s still very much alive to them, Luz is worried about paying tribute to him in that episode.

Camila mourns the loss of Manny, someone who was always better at her about being a weirdo, and without him she feels lost, falls back into what society demands of her, and in doing so hurts their daughter. She mourns that she misses him, but Camila can’t depend on Manny to be what Luz needs her to be; She’ll be Manny, for Luz but also herself too. And Luz herself struggles to be the unapologetic Manny as well, and must do it for herself especially.

It’s the way Manny recontextualizes everything about the Nocedas. It’s the way he haunts the narrative himself, because we noticed, we had to, we had to ask where he was. Why is he not there for Luz or Camila, would he support her, is Camila also struggling from his absence? We don’t need his face or voice or an outright flashback to feel and appreciate Manny’s influence (Though I would’ve loved one).

And in a way, it’s like Dana’s own father Thomas Terrace is doing the same; With it being confirmed that Dana’s dad gave her a copy of Pokémon Red before he died, you understand perfectly that Luz is Dana, Manny is her father. Dana still likes Pokémon to this day, she’s done crossover art with Pokémon and her own show.

When it came out, Pokemon was targeted by Evangelicals as evil, it was absurd; And we see the Conformatorium perform similar absurdities in the same first episode where Luz is shown to hold onto her father’s last gift, and her fight with the Conformatorium is her fight with the system that made Luz feel ashamed of Manny’s gift and the profound impact it had on her.

The villain of the show manipulates Luz and makes her think she’s just like him, something Luz acknowledges means being a selfish, destructive force; Unsurprisingly, the villain is a Puritan, the ancestor of evangelicals, who agrees on the similarities but not on these things being evil.

Manny is the invisible ghost unseen, for the same reason as Caleb; And between the two, perhaps Caleb is defined incorrectly when it comes to how he influences things. Because Caleb does not really motivate Belos, Belos always wanted to be a witch hunter before he could claim to be betrayed by Caleb, he did it for himself. He made Grimwalkers but still continues the harm unto and through them that Caleb stood against. Caleb failed to do anything with Belos, tbh, and all that is passed on are empty genes that a racist would obsess over, but never the spirit as Luz did with Manny.

But what about Caleb’s child? Manny is defined as a father to Luz. What about someone Caleb was a father to as well? His unborn child, the ancestor of Eda. Caleb was a wood carver who loved Flapjack, and the Clawthornes had a tradition of carving Palismen. Could it not be implied that Evelyn carried on his unseen and unheard, yet felt love to their child, born after the death? And this love for the isles and magic and Palismen was passed all the way down to Dell, and then Eda.

And it’s Eda who helps Luz, another human, embrace her love for the isles and magic and Palismen. Evelyn’s descendant helps another human. Luz sees Eda in Manny, she’s his successor as someone who’s present for Luz when Camila can’t always be. Eda loves wild magic and her Palisman, gives Owlbert more autonomy than other witches, and helps the Bat Queen arrange Palismen to find new partners. And what goes around comes around when Caleb’s contribution to Palismen, started by Flapjack, helps Flapjack find a new friend and set in motion events that would lead to the Clawthornes’ injustice being rectified.

I’ve seen people argue that Hunter being with Willow makes him a copy of Caleb, but in addition to Hunter’s arc being him not caring what he does or doesn’t resemble… I think maybe the true parallel to Caleb and Evelyn is Manny and Camila; Both came to Gravesfield, the father was a weirdo with an open mind. He died, the mother mourned, but he passed on something to a child, who would eventually pass it on to Luz herself as both stories and families converge.

So Evelyn and Caleb’s child haunts the narrative; They’re Luz in a sense. Manny haunts the narrative too, since the start. He is Caleb, and so he is Eda who carries that spirit. And he is Eda because she carries the spirit for Luz. Manny is Dana Terrace’s own father, who inspired her to keep being a weirdo, which led to this show. So not only is Manny more important to the narrative’s framing and focus as the main character’s father, whose absence motivates both a disconnect between mother and daughter that leads Luz to the isles, but also motivates Luz to stay?

In a way, Manny represents the father of the series, the father of the show that reflects Dana’s own experiences and beliefs. One could say he haunts Dana’s own life, except… Perhaps the word ‘haunt’ is incorrect. Because it has a negative connotation. Perhaps the word is Inspire; Manny may be dead, we may know little of Mr. Terrace or Manny himself. But we can say that Manny lived, because of his impact, his life had meaning and it always will. Something is in motion, so we all know and understand ask what, or who set it that way.

[jess-the-vampire]

In the background Hunter could hear the protests of the quickly arrested cult members, shouting in anger as he grabbed hold of their "resurrected savoir". He held the small grimwalker in his arms, knowing he was probably cold and terrified from all the commotion.

"Guess we didn't make it in time", he turned to see luz, out of breath, placing herself next to him. "No, No, i think we made it in time just fine, he's not hurt at least", the little boy was still crying as he attempted to soothe him with some rocking motions. He had little experience with this, but it did seem to be working, as the baby snuggled just a little closer to him.

"Hunter, you know what I meant, now that he's here he needs someone to look after him so those belos freaks don't try and get their wriggly hands on him again", She then began to eye him questionably as he held the baby closer, catching onto his thought process before he could even pitch the idea.

"Hunter....you sure this is a good idea for you of all people to-? I mean, if it makes you a bit uncomfortable I'm sure me and amity could-"

"I'm the only other one out there who understands, and we have a room he can stay in, it's no big deal, If he's with one of us he'll be in good hands"

She still didn't seem entirely sure, and maybe to an extent he wasn't either.

But he also couldn't bare to let it happen again, not to another one, and it wouldn't if he was there.

He gave her a cheeky smile instead, "Besides, he's super cute, and he already likes me". The woman snorted, but even she couldn't protest to that, "Ok, i give you that, but if we're doing this don't expect me to not be the nosiest aunt in the world and make sure you aren't falling apart".

He poked her, "I expect nothing less".

The small baby had fallen asleep, finally at some peace since he popped from the ground, Hunter following the others out of the cave as he kept him close.

There was bound to be more commotion to follow as word got around on the isles that some witches attempted to resurrect a man long gone and feared among the isles, and the result was being taken in by the former right hand man.

But right now, hunter wanted nothing more then to make sure the lil guy felt safe and sound.

After all, it's what he would've wanted all those years ago.

[pincushionx]

Oh I just had an evil thought about the Ghoul AU

Belos uses food as a main manipulation tactic for keeping Hunter "efficient and successful" on his missions. It has not been revealed where that meat comes from (if I'm not missing or forgetting anything).

I would totally believe that since petrification is admittedly rarely done if at all in the present day, Belos would feed him the meat of prisoners. Maybe he would amputate them and use those removed limbs to simultaneously feed Hunter less and still keep the meat fresh---objectively, it's being efficient with resources and punishing him for underperforming.

How fucked up would it be if (assuming that the ingredients required to create Grimwalkers are reusable and that the process is worth the time investment) Belos feeds him other Grimwalkers. What if he had tried it previously with the bodies of failed specimens? Would they have been able to tell the difference?

Sorry for the ramble, I just woke up from a nap and had a brrrrrr brain moment

Correct for the most part! The Emperor coven is already known to have secret petrifications of Wild witches so it would make sense for some of them to be executed in different ways for reasons. I don’t think he’d be bother to have limbs amputated, rather why not just kill them if he’s already fine with doing that.

Though the idea of “reformed” wild witches(aka those forced into covens) leaving the conformatorium with missing limbs and being told that’s just punishment is all sorts of dystopian. Though, I always like the idea that the most wild of witches would just “disappear” and the rest, lesser ones would be forced into covens or kept imprisoned. They all get arrested but have different fates depending on severity of their crimes.

After Hunter carvings arise, Belos has a select few witches hanged and taken to the morgue where they could be butchered by him or Hunter (a form of punishment) for food privately.

I always saw Grimwalkers being a limited product due to having very limited sources. I mean there aren’t many palistorm trees, selkidomous are rare, stonesleeper lungs where already limited at the start and might degrade over time, and the galdorstones are difficult to obtain. Realistically, I think Belos could only have a max of two grimwalkers at a time since he’s reusing parts.

Also the horror that Hunter’s body parts had been reused multiple times for past Golden Guards is too horrific to pass up. I think Belos harvests the corpses for these parts after killing them, all besides the bone since that’s too tedious for what it’s worth. So as much as he would like to make Hunter cannibalize other grimwalkers for experiments, he can’t do that unfortunately without further degrading a limited source.

(I think he would have had more sources in the past where he would have been able to do experiments on the grimwalkers until these materials eventually became unusable and he had to be more cautious on what he used his remaining materials on, much to his dismay)

So the best he could do is make Hunter eat the bones. Yes our boy eats bones, plenty of carnivorous animals do and it’s a good source of calcium. Though he can’t survive off them, thats an incredibly deficient diet. Since Hunter is actually consuming something that’s the same species as him, this is genuine cannibalism and it makes him incredibly sick.

Hunter is unaware of this of course, assuming it’s some random witch bone that tastes weirdly gross and is also a bit aged for his liking(not like he has the option to be picky)

Like I said, it makes him sick. Like he’s been poisoned sick. Through these are just bones and who’s to say that Belos doesn’t have grimwalker organs and flesh, preserved somewhere in storage. Might explore that possibility in the future.

[moonmeg]

What would Micah, Robyn, and Evelyn/Catherine's responses be towards Belos' actions? Or how they'd respond to Hunter? (And maybe Caleb's response to the large amount of grimwalkers)

I love your comics! Been reading them for a long time :) and I love the interactions with Micah and Robyn!

Thank you very much!! Happy to hear you enjoy it!

Robyn and Evelyn are more affected by it, since Philip/Belos is a relative. While Robyn would go "I have an evil uncle who not only killed my father - his brother - but also planned to kill my mother, me and the entire population of the Boiling Isles?!" upon learning all that at first, he quickly adapts his parents' disappointed-but-not-really-surprised stance for most of what Belos does.

It gets personal when Lilith gets into the Emperor's coven and clearly is being mistreated in some way or form and when Eda's about to be petrified. It agitated more than just Evelyn, Caleb Robyn and Micah. Generations of Clawthornes had to be held back in the afterlife, cuz they were not having it. But they can only watch in horror how Belos got his hands on their current descendants.

He's managed to before. He's raided villages and set them ablaze, I imagine he's destroyed a number of native plants including Palistroms, which... you know... the Clawthornes' entire lineage depends on. I don't think Lilith and Eda are the first Clawthornes since Evelyn (and Caleb) to suffer from Belos. I think he's made it difficult for Clawthornes before but unknowingly that they were Clawthornes. I hope this makes sense.

The whole grimwalker thing affects Caleb most, of course, since his corpse keeps getting mutilated and abused by the person he least expected it from. I don't know how many Grimwalkers there have been in total, but an adult human skeleton consists of around 206 bones and it's possible there were more than that. Do correct me if I am wrong. If it is indeed more than 206, that would mean Belos had to create more bones. Since he can only use a bone of the ortet, in this case Caleb, the only logical explanation is that he smashed or cut the individual bones up somehow else to use. Now imagine: you are stabbed and robbed of a life in freedom with your lover and child, your corpse is stolen from them and either not given a chance to be put to rest in the first place or disturbed as your grave is being dug up. Your bones are being used for the creation of clones. The person responsible for your death and disturbance of your eternal peace is trying to create the best, the perfect version of you. And not even your bones remain whole. I think Caleb's haunting look in For The Future is very fitting for that scenario and I think that's the face of every other Clawthorne who learns of it and watches it in the afterlife.

Evelyn and Robyn most of all. One is a wife who became a widow way too soon, who saw the life leave her husband's eyes, robbed of a husband in life and a place to properly grieve his loss and the other is a child, robbed of a father and part of his heritage and identity for his entire life as well as a place to properly grieve his loss.

They don't blame the grimwalkers though. Poor things don't know of it themselves and the moment they learn, they get killed.

TLTR; The entire Clawthorne lineage has beef with Belos.

[roodles03]

Oh, look! A little nugget and his soon to be adoptive father.

I gave Hunter a little tag in the ear because, headcannon alert, I think Belos did it to mark all grimwalkers. Does Hunter know this? No lmao. Not even as he grew up. Belos did it when Hunter was too young to really remember clearly and just eventually took it out, leaving behind the notch.

I also wanted to make a young adult (20s) outfit for Darius. Btw, no, I DID NOT forget the beard. That is 100% INTENTIONAL. It was to give him a more youthful appearance since its pretty damn hard to give him a even more youthful appearance when he already looks the youngest out the rest of the Hagsquad. I mean just compare Darius to Alador they're canonically the same age yet Alador looks 60 and Darius looks like he's 30. No idea what the fuck Darius did to appear so youthful despite the insane amounts of stress be must've went through in the EC.

Side note it's interesting to see a male character care so much about appearing youthful and staying hygienic. More of this, please. I think one of my favorite trope is flipping gender roles.

Did I make these just to make a drawing of Toddler Hunter and Young Darius?

To that, my answer is- :)

[247megamania]

alrighty, I've had this question for a while now and I know I can't be the only person who has ever wondered this, so Owl House Fan Community please help me out:

When the wiki says Hunter is 16 years old, what does this mean?

To clarify: Does this mean Hunter has existed for 16 years? or does it mean he's existed for a different number of years, and his mental/physical maturity is equivalent to a 16-year old?

The first option doesn't make that much sense to me. If Grimwalkers age normally, then Hunter would have been created as a baby, and I just can't see Belos successfully raising a toddler. Or getting over his paranoia enough to get someone else to raise a toddler for him. On the other hand if Grimwalkers don't normally age* and Hunter has just been like. 16 for the past 16 years. I feel like he would notice he wasn't aging? Belos is pretty good at gaslighting but there's no way he's that good.

Meanwhile the second option opens the door to all kinds of fun questions, like does Hunter have memories of a life before he was created? if he was made at age 10, for example, does he have memories of a life before that, or did Belos just convince him he has a Perfectly Normal Case of really severe amnesia? if he does have memories, are they entirely fabricated or are they based off Caleb and Philips' childhood, or snippets from previous Golden Guards? and so on and so forth.

anyways before I travel too far into speculation I want to know what's already been established on these questions, and I'm not sure how to find that out. If anyone can point me in the right direction I'd be much obliged! a wonderful 24 hour cycle upon everyone who reads this post.

(*we do see Hunter age, but that's after he gets possessed and kinda-sorta dies and Flapjack saves him, and we know that process changed his body in some way because his eyes changed color. From what I've seen in the show, it's still on the table that aging isn't a normal thing for Grimwalkers. It's also still on the table that aging is a perfectly normal thing for Grimwalkers. I have no idea what to think about this.)

[findmeinthefallair]

Hi again!☺️ Ok so I did already ask a question but I'm wondering if you might indulgie me and let me ask one more. Ask 30!😃 So I rewatched Labyrinth Runners again, and I couldn't get it out of my head what could have happened if the coven scouts were successful and Hunter got taken back to Belos. So what do you think would have happened if in Labyrinth Runners, Hunter never got saved and ended up being taken back to Belos? Do you think Belos would have killed him just like he did the other golden guards? Or Terra would have give him one of her mysterious mind scrambling drinks, (is that canon? I'm pretty sure it is...) just like she did to Raine but this time there's no way out of drinking it? Or would Belos try gaslight Hunter into thinking it's the titans will or something like that, like he's been doing all of Hunters life? I'm really curious to hear your theories and thoughts about this! Sorry if you've already answered this already btw! And thank you!☺️ I wish you all the best in your life!🫶

Hi! Thank you for this ask, am always happy to discuss anything Hunter :D :D Sorry that this response is so late, life stuff got in the way but here we go:

Oh my Titan, Labyrinth Runners is truly an episode. Its rewatchability is off the charts and it's packed with so much tasty material.

To be honest, I haven't really thought about what would've unfolded if those coven scouts successfully brought him back to the castle. I've more so thought about an alternate exploration of the King's Tide plotline whereby Kikimora did bring him to Belos at the Head, instead of Luz.

I had wondered if Belos wished to harvest the galdorstone from Hunter's chest for reuse, assuming that was even still possible once a grimwalker was created, and assuming the stone wouldn't be used up in said creation process. (Unless Belos would have to perform some freaky spell to revert the grimwalker back to its base ingredients...? That does not sound like a walk in the park at all!)

This would've I guess had delicious parallels with other thrilling moments in the show like the following?:

especially with regards to the weapon that Principal Bump is holding, which matches the one in Hunter's room in the castle and also the one held by Philip in the Hollow Mind paintings.

But your questions are interesting to think about, nonetheless! If the writers had indeed chosen that route in Labyrinth Runners, it would've been a way more stressful experience for us Hunter fans leading up to Season 2's finale, teehee.

Hunter has a galdorstone as his "power source", in place of a witch's/human's heart, and said stone is a very rare resource in the demon realm. Surely this means that Belos would've liked to retrieve and reuse it from Hunter if he could, no? It makes me wonder what the hell Belos did with the galdorstone(s) belonging to each previous grimwalker that he has killed, yeeshh. I highly doubt there was any stray galdorstone left behind in the bone pit that was the horrible mass grave in the Titan's Head.

Or...like I said earlier, maybe galdorstones were used up once the grimwalker came into being. Definitely possible, since none of the witches' magic gets amplified when they stand in proximity to Hunter, haha.

We can't say for sure regarding the potential Terra would see in Hunter, and the relationship between him and Terra to begin with. But it's horrifying to picture Belos wanting to coerce Hunter so much to still do his bidding and perhaps turn against the friends the boi has made, that Belos would rely on Terra to whip up that same mind-scrambling tea to use on Hunter.

By that point, it was fully real and undeniable to Hunter how disposable he is to Belos, and while his 'uncle' has uttered before that it's a hassle to find a replacement, it ain't impossible. In my mind, no further persuasion from Belos to pathetically backpedal on attempting to murder Hunter in Hollow Mind, would have been effective.

With regards to Belos making further attempts to gaslight him and once again bring up that it's all about "the Titan's will", I must say that given the fortitude and courage demonstrated by Hunter in Hollow Mind and King's Tide --

-- any further attempts to persuade and gaslight the boi would've failed. It was clear as day that he preferred that Hunter be dead (and guhhh he still managed to pull that off in Thanks to Them by giving Hunter no choice but to drag them both down). And Hunter having the help of Flapjack and now the Hexsquad, would've rather have died standing his ground than be successfully persuaded to go back to aiding Belos.

Gus offering him his lunch in the canon Labyrinth Runners we got was indeed a turning point: it was enough to move Hunter into action, starting with him saving Gus from Adrian Graye in Hexside's gym. If the episode had branched off from the altercation between Gus and Hunter and those two coven scouts in the narrow streets, with Hunter getting recaptured by said scouts, I'm positive that the boi would've continued to fight tooth and nail to escape, or die trying.

(Oh yikes typing the previous sentence reminded me of the scene from Tangled where Rapunzel tells Mother Gothel -- after being recaptured by the latter -- that she would keep fighting till her last breath: Link to the scene, aaah)

At the same time, I personally think that him being recaptured by the scouts so soon after Hollow Mind would've started feeling gratuitous, in the sense that it really would've felt that the writers were torturing him and causing him additional stress and retraumatization for funsies. Some fans of the show already feel as though the direction they took with him being possessed and other stuff in his arc is already too much.

Plus, I think Belos knew he'd potentially have more annoying loose ends to tie up after Hunter escaped the coven, e.g. word getting out about who the Golden Guards actually were. At the same time, it's eerie to think that Belos's hubris may've gone as far as being confident that Hunter wouldn't seek help and wouldn't begin telling others about his evil plans, hm.

Anyhow, his (Belos's) attention had shifted to tormenting Luz instead. And it seems that at the end of Hollow Mind, the Day of Unity wasn't that far off? Thus he was betting on the plans for that day to go smoothly enough, and he must've been snickering in confidence that Hunter would be killed by the draining spell anyway. Ueghhhgh. Thank you Luz for being brilliant and outsmarting him with the branding glove in King's Tide and saving everyone.

If you remember from the old days (when the show was still airing and in production), one of the crew said that for King's Tide, they initially planned so that when Belos went splat against the wall in the Head,

some of the goop was supposed to splash onto Hunter. It's bad enough that now, after Thanks to Them etc, the boi probably has nightmares about being drenched in goop regardless.

I'm mostly glad they didn't proceed with that violent idea, for the same reasons stated earlier about things becoming gratuitous for the boi's arc and the story the writers wanted to tell about him. It's still stupidly fun to imagine the "what if", though xD

I'm still here screaming about how horrifying this frame is to look at:

and how he was the one who opened the portal door to the human realm rain (given how he had the conversation with Belos in Eclipse Lake about rain on Earth),

while Gus, wanting to be an ambassador to the human realm, was the first one to run through the door.

Well, I'm signing off with something not quite relevant but quoting one of my older posts, I'd also lowkey wished back in the day for a Harpy Eda and powered up Darius team-up, versus Belos, to protect Luz and Hunter in King's Tide (even if it lasted like, only 20 seconds). I wanted to see both those badass adults working together and going all out in protective mode. Preferrably battling against Belos on that high platform where Belos and the Coven Heads were standing on the Day of Unity. *shrug*

Thank you for the opportunity to ramble ^^

[defendingtheowlhouse]

Have some thoughts and I wanted to hear your take.

While I do like lumity I personally think that lunter (luz x hunter) would make the most sense narratively speaking as it would highlight how wrong Belos was about the situation with Caleb. By having hunter end up with a human, it contradicts belos' point about witches being evil and the reason why Caleb left him alone. I also feel like it would parallel Caleb and Evelyn really well since luz was technically the one to kick-start hunters arc (you could say that willow and hunter also parallel Caleb and evelyn but I feel like you'd need more development to actually make a case for it).

Now if Lunter did happen I would pair amity with willow as it would provide some more depth to amity' character and her bullying. We don't actually see amity reconcile with willow besides maybe one or two scenes so it would be really interesting to see how a bully would act and develop after falling for one of their victims. I personally didn't really like amity's redemption because it seemed the writers retconned her bullying by having her mention that Boscha was the one bullying willow even though we see amity bully her in the first episode she shows up in. Willow would also be provided with some much-needed character development if amity really did like her after bullying her so much. (also when luz and amity got together all I would think of was imagining your best friend dating your former bully. Thinking of that I feel bad for willow). Understanding Willow is a decent episode when it comes to willow and amity's development but it also seemed like the episode was just hinting at Lumity than actually caring about willow and amity's bullying plot. After the episode I was expecting amity to try really hard to be willows friend again but we didn't really get much payoff when it came to this (now I might be wrong because it's been a while since I've watched the show so correct me if I'm wrong lol). Willows forgiveness of amity also seemed really rushed to me and I feel like we should've gotten an episode dedicated to their rekindling friendship.

Thank you for contributing to the discussion. If I sound mean it is not purposeful, it is simply passion burning too bright, I wish not to offended but the fires of disagreement burn bright.

1. I actually really dislike when people try to parallel ANY of the relationships to caleb and evelyn. Hunter is not caleb, and people need to stop acting like it would be better if he was just the caleb in the relationship. He's his own guy, and I think comparing huntlow or lunter to it is kinda silly and I dislike it. I find discussions of 'who's kinda like these dead guys more' irrelevant

2. It in no way contradicts his point. The reason he thought witches were bad wasn't because they took his brother. He hated them before that, him being abandoned is no way implied to have caused him to hate witches because he already hated them. He doesn't care about the motivations of grimwalkers to betray him because no matter what, they do their traitors. They can not make any point because belos is wilfully ignorant of their point of view, brushing it completely aside.

3. Hunter leaving 'for love' in my opinion completely cheapens his character arc and makes it become superficial. It makes him mirror the random dead guy, making him seem like less of his own person and makes it feel more like it's about hormones than the strong themes central to the themes of the show. Hunter's willful ignorance is taken from him, and he's forced to face the truth. Hunter literally thinks ignorance is the way people should be "this stuff is restricted for a reason" "they knew too much and got themselves hurt". Hunter is shown to be a well-meaning yet wilfully ignorant character. The episode makes a point of how it's about how those people need to be forced to confront the truth rather than cause more harm "maybe we just need something big to change their minds" which is so much more important to me than him leaving hormonal responses to the people around him. (And if it's after then that just feels like the devaluing of friendships because it would litteraly change nothing)

4. Why is it more interesting to see a bully catch feelings for their victim? In this case, is that why they change because that makes her feel like she has less agency in her willingness to change if it's motivated not by regret and seeing the error of her ways, remembering the old times and seeing how things change just for it to be replaced with hormones making her reflect on herself because she has feelings for her.

5. While the phrasing of the scene implies that amity didn't bully willow "then you let your new friends pick on her for years" "I won't let bosha and her gang pick on you ever again" if you pay a bit more attention it seems more like clunky wording. We see tiny amity calling her names and if you take the often cited quote in its full "I CAN'T UNDO WHAT IVE DONE BUT I CAN PROMISE YOU THIS I won't let boscha ad her gang pick on you ever again" it seems more like their saying that permitting boscha is another extra bad thing amity's done and another part of her behaviour she needs to fix. (Besides, why would romance need to be built up to to improve this scene)

6. Amity does try to make it up to willow after that. That's the entire B plot of labyrinth runners. They couldn't spare a whole episode with their time but they spared half of one

7. I cannot stress enough how much I enjoy willow's character arc which I think is often ignored by those who wish to pose it isn't there, i was almost going to make a post by myself about it. I love how she gains confidence and becomes more of herself, but despite this, she still needs support and doesn't need to be invulnerable to be strong. I love how its sprinkled in episodes not about her (it makes her feel more real to me). My favourite part of huntlow (which wouldn't change whether platonic or not, infer the combination of their names as you wish) is how both have inverse arcs about finding who they really are. Willow can be as strong as she is and hunter doesn't have to be strong. They together embody truth of the self outside of what others force you to be.

[quadrantadvisor]

Owl House/Boiling Isles biology headcanons from a fic idea I never wrote:

Witches have a wider range of color vision than humans. A lot of magic puts off infrared light (meaning Luz is missing out on like, half of what spells actually look like).

Humans, however, have a better sense of smell. Witches are better at digesting potentially hazardous materials, but humans have to worry about poisons. Humans are also highly specialized to smell petrichor (via Wikipedia, "able to detect it at concentrations as low as 0.4 parts per billion"), and witches can't smell it at all. (Luz is like, "I miss the rain smells in the human realm so much. On the Boiling Isles the rain just smells like burning :/" and all her friends are like, "what. are you talking about."

Witches don't have an appendix, but they do, coincidentally, also have a random organ that doesn't have much of a purpose and sometimes ruptures and kills you. It's located slightly above the right lung.

Kinda obvious but, ears. Witch ears have a greater curve than human ears and taper into a point. They have some limited mobility, allowing the witch to pinpoint sounds, and they play a part in emotional expression. For a witch, it's not really that strange that human ears are round, it's more that they don't move at all. They're completely stiff, and it makes humans difficult to read. (Luz is lucky she's otherwise very expressive, or else she would come off as nearly emotionless. As it is, sometimes people think she's not being genuine, because her ears don't match the rest of her expression, like when someone smiles without their eyes.)

Humans have slightly denser bones than witches. As a result, humans weigh a bit more on average and put on muscle easier.

Witches can't digest lactose

A high tolerance for most human poisons means that alcohol isn't a popular drug for witches. It technically affects them in a similar way, but their tolerance is such that it's not an effective way to get high. Most of the drugs used recreationally on the Boiling Isles would kill a human instantly.

Witches have a different pulse beat from humans, since their hearts are designed differently to accommodate the bile sac (and grimwalkers' pulses are even more unique, since they have a galdorstone. Rather than the thump of blood valves, Grimwalkers have a sort of magic hum that pulses their circulatory system.)

[linatalin]

The owl house Belos's curse

I once had a theory about **Belos's "curse**". Let me explain: I don't think he has a curse because he carved a network of glyphs on himself, but let's call it that for convenience. What do we even know about his curse: when he arrived in the demon realm 400 years ago, Philip decided to destroy all the witches, somehow found information about the Collector, took his disk with Luz's help and learned about the draining spell. In the same episode (season 2 episode 12, by the way) we already see glyphs on his hand and suffering from the curse. As he said there, **"I just need to live exactly as long as it takes to finish."** I don't think I need to explain what that means. As many of the community have found out, Philip's curse began with the glyphs on his body to prolong his life, he needed the magic of the palismans to control the glyphs, but soon the palismans began to go on strike, which is why new palismans were needed again. And so it turned out to be a vicious circle. As we see, over the years (centuries) he needed more and more magic of palismans to calm others with them. So, in order to live and exist for so long, apparently, a mind and soul, strong magic and a **BODY** are needed. Yes, we saw a body made of palismans substance, but I will refute this: we were in the mind of Belos/Philip, so I dare to boldly assert that this was simply their materialization. In King's tide we see his true appearance, and indeed, there is a lot of stuff mixed up there, but there are the basics: bones, his body, or rather what was left of it (green liquid-rot=decomposition) and the materialization of palismans (apparently in Hollow Mind he did not destroy them all). According to Google, the body decomposes from 10 to 30 years, bones from several months to several decades, and although we are in a magical world, it is unlikely that Philip found some kind of spell against body decay, so he turned into this green thing. So, here is my theory: **what if Belos used other people's bodies to maintain his shape?** We have already been shown that he can possess and control other people's bodies (Hunter and Rain). **What if he used this?** In For the Future, he went to that cave and possessed a body (most likely an unfinished Grimwalker). Here is your answer: ***Belos used the bodies of the Golden Guardians to continue his existence.*** This also explains why Belos / Philip looks like Hunter (or vice versa, think as you want). I was always confused by his light hair, it is not gray, but white (yellow). Compare it at least with Gwendolyn's hair (Ida's mother), and she is clearly gray. And by the way about hair - there is no beard, and Caleb had long hair. His nose remained with him from his old appearance, because grimwalkers have long ears, he shortened them (cut them off), the eyes changed color under his influence, as did the nose. And now we know why in the place where King fell in King's tide there are a lot of bones, but no flesh (the body apparently decomposed faster than the bones, so he threw them out of sight).

After such a theory, it is more than clear to me why the owl project does not suit Disney, too dark and creepy. But thanks to Dana for not explaining this to us right away, otherwise I would not have such a theory (although it seems to me more that this is the truth :).

What do you think about this? Could this theory be true or am I just trying to find an overly simple and rational explanation?

[sepublic]

We give Belos way too much credit for feeling bad about his dead brother and Grimwalkers because like. He’s a racist white guy who’s murdered a culture and damaged its land across centuries but only feels guilt for his white brother and clones. He doesn’t hallucinate any witch or demon in FtF. He never got close to any of them sure, but that’s because of his racism which just further proves the point.

What this means is that for all his ‘guilt’, Belos doesn’t think his actual motives and goals as a witch hunter are wrong, just that human (adjacent) white guys shouldn’t be hurt in the process, but if they need to be they will. There’s the external setup for Belos to maybe change because of that remorse, but the internal setup that he won’t because he doesn’t even consider what the actual crux of the issue was, that being who he killed Caleb for fraternizing with, who Caleb died to protect, who has been brutalized far more than the Grimwalkers ever have been.

I’d even argue that Philip wouldn’t have minded if Caleb moved to another Puritan colony to settle with a Christian white woman; It was not so much Caleb leaving him, so much as who Caleb left him for. People like to reduce Belos to codependency with Caleb, as if his witch hunting fantasies weren’t established before Evelyn’s arrival; Philip let those inform his takeaway that he could not follow where Caleb was going, ergo Caleb betrayed him, because even Belos’ baggage with Caleb is rooted in racism. Mind you, Belos is still killing the Grimwalkers because he doesn’t really regret it, he’ll keep doing it because abusers are paradoxical like that. The ghosts just reinforce what’s wrong with him, instead of suggesting otherwise.

I think those fics and fanart of Belos being ganged up on in the afterlife by the Grimwalkers are missing the point, to Belos it would validate his racism by saying the only people whose suffering mattered, who deserve revenge, are the white guys he wasn’t explicitly targeting. I think a good take on the Belos suffering in the afterlife trope would have him be attacked by all the witches and demons and palismen he brutalized, without a single Grimwalker nor Caleb in sight.

As you can imagine, this is another reason why Eda and co. killing Belos works; Because once again he’s focused on Luz, whose framing parallels Caleb’s ghost from FtF, and talking about how only humans matter and Belos deserves to be spared for being human. Only for the witches and demons who were the actual emotional core of the issue that Caleb died for (one of whom is the descendant of the child he saved, not that Caleb factors to her motives because it’s not about Caleb) to step in and reiterate, Nah their suffering and anger is just as important.

People set up Belos’ fratricide and murdered nephews as the worst thing he’s ever done because they also think the white boys’ suffering is more important but tbh? It pales in comparison to the irreversible damage he committed to the Boiling Isles’ environment, its culture and history, its thousands of people as a whole, etc. The Titan is dead and its arm displaced because of him, so many resources and species have been depleted. To quote Castlevania and what a black revenge-seeking anti hero was told before encountering real evil in the form of a white man who enslaves en masse, “There are worse things than betrayal.”

[tartsinarat]

Heres an extremely dumbass idea I thought of while rewatching parks and rec through clips

Belos: “Depressed? I’m the furthest thing from depressed. I mean, look at what I’ve accomplished. Do you see them? Do you think a depressed person could make this? No.”

Hunter:” uh…father who are you talking to? There’s no one there”

Here’s the live Caleb reaction

But yeah I just find Caleb showing up to haunt Belos’s ass at random points and judging every life decision he’s making, so then every time Belos has to miserably fail to try to justify everything he’s done ever to (quite literally) dead silent Caleb is kinda funny in a morbid way

This time he is showing off and brings up his two grimwalkers that have lasted the longest beating his record of two years as an example of a good life decision as well as proving that he totally doesn’t need therapy

Ngl I feel bad for Pip as the poor guy just wanted to nap and got picked up just for Belos to prove a point but he stayed asleep through all of it tho

Btw Caleb is trying so hard not to loose his shit just because there’s youngins there and he doesn’t want to wake up Pip by making Belos pissed off so he’s going to stand there in silence even more menacingly and judgemental

I like the idea that despite the weird as fuck origins of Pip and Hunter, Caleb still sees them as his nephews and likes to check up on them every once in a while when he’s not haunting Belos, Caleb checks on Hunter the most because he’s constantly in dangerous situations even inside the castle so it helps Hunter a lot to have Caleb staring daggers at Belos whenever he gets violent towards Hunter because it usually stops him

On the other hand Caleb does like checking on Pip because it’s nice seeing a version of what could have been if Philip had learnt to accept the boiling isles :( also I can imagine it’s nice seeing your great x(insert number) granddaughter continue your wife’s tradition of being a menace to a stuck up society and teaching those ways to your weird mini brother/ nephew.

also fun fact Hooty can see Caleb (don’t ask how) and greatly enjoys chatting to him as Caleb was the one who managed to convince Eve to let hooty stay in their house’s door as a “guard” but really Caleb just felt bad for the wee bug demon as hooty didn’t have a home at the time and thought so he would be a fun addition to the family hence why alongside Lilith, Caleb was one of Hooty’s favourite people

btw nobody really cares or finds it unusual for hooty to just be talking to himself so not one single person has asked about it lmao

Almost forgot to mention but this is actually still a weird memory that Hunter remembers and used to wonder why on the boiling isles did Belos have those random fits of “hallucinations” until he talked about it with Pip.

Pip was just causally like “wait you couldn’t see him?” And walked off… Hunter has never found out or gotten a clear answer if Pip was actually joking or if he could straight up see dead people, Pip refuses to reveal the real answer because he finds Hunter being confused as fuck hilarious

Also if your wondering why Belos doesn’t have the cool mechanical prosthetic staff arm, he usually hides it with a glove :p (this is because a) I’m too lazy to draw such a detailed prosthetic all the time and b) I doubt Belos would like people to know he’s missing an arm as I doubt he would like the idea of seeming “weak” because in his day this would essentially be a death sentence either due to infection or being classed as less than due to not being able to work properly)

[pincushionx]

Imagine an AU where Belos is imprisoned after Titan Luz defeats him rather than killed.

Then one day Hunter comes to visit him in his prison and he asks if Belos ever thought he could have been happy with him.

And (and I know this would be OOC for him) Belos can't bring himself to answer. He would gladly say no just to make Hunter feel bad, or maybe even say yes to manipulate him, but he actually finds himself lost for words.

Hmmm, this is outside of what you asked but I wonder if Belos did have any sort of love for Hunter.

It’s already stated that Belos created Hunter as a toddler. It’s still unconfirmed if he made any other baby grimwalkers. I’m also pretty sure it was confirmed that he experimented on grimwalkers too, so not every grimwalker was a Golden Guard. So I’m going to assume all the previous Golden Guards where older teens to adults. I wonder if he had any attachment to Hunter, I mean he was around since he was basically a baby. It’s hard to imagine not having some fondness for something like that but again this is Belos.

I see different thoughts on why Belos created the grimwalkers, some say it was Belos way of justifying himself and reliving the betrayal over and over, it was genuinely to get an ideal version of Caleb, to have a new brother to take care of him, ect. I genuinely wonder if Belos ever loved a grimwalker, maybe the early ones but that was hundreds of years ago and that’s still a maybe.

He hallucinates Caleb looking down on him, disappointed. He knows subconsciously that what he doing is wrong but he’s too far deep into his delusion that he’s saving mankind from these sinful witches.

In the end they are just tools, an uncanny replacement for the brother he murdered and never got over.

But at the same time he did express disappointment at Hunter not lasting, the collector also question why he didn’t kill Hunter when he had the chance to after eclipse lake which is odd if Hunter is so replaceable. That he genuinely believed that Hunter would stay in line and be his most loyal one.

Actually now that I think about it, Hunter never betrayed Belos explicitly. He only rebelled in small ways like studying wild magic, making friends and having a palismen which Lilith also had. Hunter only nearly got killed because he found out the truth but Belos never gave him the chance to plead for mercy or the option to come back. Who knows if Hunter would have gone back if he was given the chance, Belos could have at least attempted to manipulate him to believing what he saw was fake or something.

He says their betrayals hurt but never shows it. While I do think the grimwalkers are set for failure since the start, he might have had hope that Hunter would have lasted since this one he actually raised this one and the fact that Hunter was actually loyal and devoted to him. It hurts how much this kid loves him.

Idk if the other grimwalkers were tricked to believing Belos was their family or something but Hunter loved him like a father figure and wanted his approval so badly and Belos knew this.

To your hypothetical, imprisoned Belos Au are interesting but something you don’t see often. I think he would spend a lot of time pondering, praying and wondering what if’s. Considering there’s not much to do when you’re locked up. He allowed himself to live in ignorance and hate for so long, was it even worth it? Could have he been happy in a place like the boiling isles? What if he never killed Caleb? What if he never left the human realm? What if he never made a daring spell? Why did he make coven again? What if he gave which kind a chance…? What if he never abused his grimwalkers? It all too crazy and he’s spiraling.

Hunter visits one day despite being told it not a good idea. But how could he not? Despite being abused and hurt in unfathomable ways by him, he still loves him in sick way. He was his only family for so long, that man who kept him isolated. He still fantasizes about being fussed over and loved by Belos, still has ‘fond’ memories of him. So to Belos surprise, the Grimwalker he once killed and abused is now sitting in front of him, ready to chat.

They talk for a bit, Hunter tells him a bit about the outside word and the changes made. He isn’t aggressive or confrontational, he couldn’t be even if he wanted to. Belos stays silent, unsure of what to say. Most grimwalkers expressed hatred before death, yet this one who he actually once killed was chatting with him like it was a normal day. Hunter is terrified but he keeps chatting, pretending this is fine. Belos tries to make his own comments and redirect the conversations but can’t. He lost for words because he’s in a situation not even he foresaw. He expected rage, ridicule or even tears but not this. Hunter was talking to him like he was still family.

I imagine Hunter, in his ill mind, still thinking of Belos as family. Still someone he wants to love despite everything. That he often thinks of him even on good days.

Soon Hunter asks that question if Belos could have ever been happy with him, if he ever loved him. Hunter believes that answer is no, he was already marked for the slaughter with that sigil, a dead man walking. Even if he wants that answer so badly to be yes.

And Belos can’t answer because he’s already thought of this. Could he have been happy with Hunter? Was he fond of Hunter? Was Hunter just a replacement? Was he a good replacement? Could he have loved him outside of being a replacement? Was there any love for the child he raised?

He could say no and hurt Hunter, the ‘love’ was always conditional, he was just a tool, was meant to be dead, ect. (But that might drive Hunter away and Belos is lonely)

He could say yes and give Hunter false hope, manipulate him, make him take pity, revive that old loyalty, ect. (He could get caught in this monitored state and get his only loyal companion ripped away)

But he can’t answer because he doesn’t know. It’s been so long since he had loved. He hated for far too long, he got rid of any chance to love. Was it possible to be happy with Hunter? Just him being Hunter and not some tool or replacement?

Idk this concept is good, I genuinely wonder what would have happened if Belos did actually love Hunter. I don’t think he does or ever did, he was just upset that his tools broke faster than he thought it would but it’s an interesting thought. I think if Belos and Hunter did start to bond in this Au, everything would be bittersweet in the worse ways.

[crimeronan]

Ok wait BUT, we know it's possible to remotely enter someone's mind scape. So what if Luz let's Camilla and Vee run hunter off cause she doesn't remember him. So Hunter decides to (SOMEHOW) drag Darius into fixing her mind. Darius brings raine along, and it's like the worst version of them figuring out if she would have been an Evil Empress.

Hunter desperately trying to fix luz which would REQUIRE him to see all the grimwalker shit. Raine thinking they fucked up so bad to not see this all. Everyone is bitching with everyone else.

"Little prince are you all right?"

"I'm so good rn Darius. I'm a zombie clone but also luz Knows, and that means she remembers me, so everything is great hahahahaa"

But they fix it all, right? Hunter is having a breakdown, but they got all the memories in place.

And then Luz wakes up next to Vee, and she is freaking out!!!!! She sent HER BOY away!

hunter is like darius, if you don't help me, i'm going to find a way to do it myself. and her inner self probably won't be too fond of me, given what i saw. i don't know exactly what belos did to her, but she was scared of me, so i know he did SOMETHING. you KNOW she'd never be afraid of me

& darius, who has been dealing with the fact that hunter managed to sneak past all his security to go get himself killed by belos, is like for fuck's sake. you really will, won't you.

fine. Fine.

raine gets roped in because they're good with luz & hunter trusts them implicitly. so they're on official Keep The Inner Luz Calm duties.

also, luz's two-tiered mindscape.... she has all her (now incomplete/jumbled/confused) grimwalker memories on the surface. all her memories of when she pretended to be an unfeeling little tyrant to please belos. so even when they put the pieces back together, hunter is STILL like no. something's wrong. these can't be right, that's not.... that's not LUZ.

while darius is trying to be gentle about "that IS luz." except, yknow. darius doesn't have a gentle bone in his body. so he's just like welp. sucks to see her true self. she's probably better off left in the human realm, huh??

meanwhile raine is the one to be like no... this doesn't feel right to me either. this doesn't account for any of what i know about luz.

if and when the inner luz shows up, i think she'd solve this for them.... she can SEE that something is wrong with her memories, she's soot-stained with unhealing burn injuries and she keeps coughing and she needs Help. she'll take whatever help she can get. she'll lead them to the lower levels and the "real" luz memories. and everything down there is a blackened wasteland -- all her wild magic, all her childhood memories, all her love for hunter.

and that's worse for hunter than even fixing the grimwalker memories was. seeing just how devastated her mindscape is, just how damaged and in pain her inner self is....

and then yeah. luz wakes up healed in the real world & is immediately Frantic. more frantic than vee or camila have ever seen her. running out of the house, out into the street, not bothering to watch for cars. stumbling over her own feet. calling hunter's name. screaming at both vee And camila when they try to calm her down and get her to come inside.

ough. Ough.

babies....